The Moosa Slobodian Network

keywordsAppleViz, Be My Eyes, technology, accessibility, community, legacy, user experience, Mac, PC, blind community, technology, accessibility, Braille, CSUN, learning styles, WhatsApp, voiceover, assistive devices, affordability, innovation

summaryIn this conversation, Ali Moosa and Steven Scott discuss the recent developments surrounding AppleViz, a significant resource for the blind community, particularly in light of its founder David Goodwin’s health issues and the subsequent takeover by Be My Eyes. They explore the importance of legacy, community value, and the emotional impact of losing such a vital platform. The discussion also delves into the user experience of Mac versus PC, highlighting the strengths and weaknesses of each system, and concludes with listener insights on the universal copy-paste feature that enhances productivity. In this conversation, Steven Scott and Ali Moosa discuss various aspects of technology accessibility, particularly focusing on the challenges and innovations in Braille devices. They explore the differences between using PCs and Macs for accessibility, the learning styles of users, and the latest advancements showcased at the CSUN conference. The discussion also touches on the affordability of assistive devices and the importance of ensuring that new technologies are accessible to all users.

takeaways

• David Goodwin’s health issues raised concerns about AppleViz’s future.
• The community’s emotional response highlighted the value of AppleViz.
• Legacy planning is crucial for sustaining important resources.
• Be My Eyes’ takeover of AppleViz was a surprise but welcomed.
• Community involvement is key to the future of AppleViz.
• User experience varies significantly between Mac and PC.
• Universal copy-paste is a game changer for productivity.
• The blind community has diverse needs across different platforms.
• There is a growing use of Android among blind users globally.
• Accessibility features are essential for user satisfaction. WhatsApp is more efficient on PC than Mac.
• Learning by doing is crucial for technology users.
• CSUN showcases significant advancements in Braille technology.
• Braille displays are becoming thinner and more user-friendly.
• The cost of Braille devices remains a significant barrier.
• Assistive devices often require government support for affordability.
• New technologies are not always covered by existing funding programs.
• User feedback is essential for improving accessibility in tech.
• Learning styles vary, impacting how users engage with technology.
• The conversation highlights the need for ongoing discussions about accessibility.

titles

• The Future of AppleViz: A Community Perspective
• Legacy and Planning in Tech Resources
• Emotional Impact of Losing AppleViz
• Be My Eyes: A New Chapter for AppleViz

Sound Bites

• “Why can’t someone else take this on?”
• “We have to start recognizing our own value.”
• “I think we are still in a minority.”
• “The ecosystem that holds me in.”
• “It’s what you’re used to.”
• “It’s a huge time saver.”
• “PC and WhatsApp is a much better experience.”
• “CSUN’s incredible, isn’t it?”

Chapters

00:00

Introduction and Context of AppleViz

04:34

The Importance of Legacy and Planning

07:41

Community Value and Emotional Impact

10:41

Be My Eyes Takes Over AppleViz

12:37

The Future of AppleViz and Community Involvement

15:57

User Experience: Mac vs. PC

24:56

Listener Insights and Universal Copy-Paste

26:52

Navigating Technology: The WhatsApp Dilemma

29:14

Learning Styles: The Challenge of VoiceOver

33:35

CSUN Insights: Innovations in Braille Technology

39:51

Accessibility and Affordability: The Cost of Braille Devices

Transcript:

Ali Moosa (1:51.376)

Good morning on Tuesday, April 8th, 2025. Thank you so much for tuning in and thank you, Rod Mawhood for the intro. I am joined here by Steven Scott to talk some technology here and which fits into our news category here. Steven, I want to take this opportunity to thank you so much once again for taking the opportunity to join me. It’s been a while since we’ve shared the mic.

Steven Scott (2:19.916)

Yeah, certainly is great to be back here with you, Ali.

Ali Moosa (2:23.288)

It’s always a pleasure. And I want to start by uh asking you about last year, we had the whole Apple this debacle where the found the original founder, David Goodwin, had said that he wanted that he’s going to shut it down. And he did have some health sort of scares as well. What was your initial reaction to that?

Steven Scott (2:50.230)

I think initially I was shocked and I was shocked to hear, I mean, first off, that David wasn’t well and that he was considering moving away. to be perfectly honest, I was thinking more about him in the initial stages because obviously, you know, hearing anyone’s health is, know, on a downward spiral is not a good thing. And we obviously want to wish him well and hope he is well. But, you know, at the same time, when he talked about closing down AppleViz, there was a question mark for me.

That initial question mark, think, was, look, why can’t someone else take this on or why can’t this be continued in some way? Because this is a huge valuable resource that David has built up over many, many years and has become a really major focal point for a lot of blind people, not just every day when you think about an issue that you’ve got on your smartphone or on your Mac or whatever. When it comes to product launches, when it comes to new software updates,

AppleViz is the place to go, right? It’s the place to go to get the very latest information on those bugs. Should I update? That’s the question every blind person asks me all the time when I’m doing my show. Is it time to update to the new iOS? Is it time to get the new Mac OS? Should I update my Apple TV? And of course, the answers are often in AppleViz. So for that not to be there anymore just seemed amazing to me. That’d be possible. Could we honestly be in a world now without AppleViz?

That was the shock, think. That was a shock, think, for me was that, you know, obviously thinking about David and his health, also thinking about the legacy of the work he’d done. Why would he want it to end? And so we were all relieved when we found out what happened next.

Ali Moosa (4:34.018)

Is it fair to say that proper planning was not done in the sense that, that he wants to shut it that quote in his head going quote, I want to shut it down, but you know, we have to sort of, but there has to be a plan in place because if something such so significant like this, like that was going to happen, a proper planning has to be in place. If you ask me.

Steven Scott (4:45.688)

Mm.

Steven Scott (5:1.814)

Yeah, and look, I imagine it must have been on his mind at some point along the way. Perhaps, like you say, he just felt, you know, once it had run its course as far as he had run his course with it, that it would go away and that would be the natural order of things. I can’t speak for David. I don’t know him well at all. I think we might have spoken once or twice. I don’t know if we’ve met that often, but here’s the thing. I’m doing a show every day, which has grown immensely over the past few years. And I am acutely aware.

And you know, the Appleviz situation has kind of forced me to think about it more. That, know, if I was to drop dead tomorrow, and obviously, Ali, I hope that doesn’t happen, but if it does, then, you know, I have to think about what the legacy is of this show. Does it continue? I want it to continue. And I want it to have a life beyond me. So I have to think about that. And it’s kind of made me think about it. And I think it’s also made a lot of blind people in whatever field they do, whether it’s what you do here or whether it’s

AppleViz does, or whether it’s what we do on DoubleTap, that we have to start recognizing our own value in the community and also to the wider world. We do have value and there is value in what we do. again, I don’t know David well enough to know his thinking on this, but if there was any thinking at all of, you know, it’s just this thing I’ve done and you know, it’s a big deal, whatever, you if it goes away, goes away. Then, you know, I think we have to stop thinking like that. I think we have to start seeing the value in what we do.

And I think it’s woken a few blind people up to that, to realize, especially with the outpouring of emotion and grief. mean, grief, right? Over a website, you wouldn’t think that’d be possible, but yeah, there was grief. There was upset. There was anger as well. were people who were angry at David and saying, you know, this is a disgrace. You should be absolutely, you know, thinking ahead here and thinking what would happen. But equally, maybe this just, this is just caught up with David very quickly. He didn’t really want to give it any more time.

to, you know, you maybe couldn’t afford to give it time. You have to remember there’s real people behind this. So, you know, it could be that it’s just been one of those things that, yeah, yeah, we’ll talk about it at some point. We’ll talk about succession plan. We’ll talk about planned changes, planned, you know, obsolescence, if you like, but it never happened.

Ali Moosa (7:17.082)

See, I think when you talk about legacy, What I want, like see, what I would want to be remembered for is that uh quote, that I always did and what I wanted to do and what was important to me. That’s what I really, that’s what I would want to be remembered for.

Steven Scott (7:37.048)

Hmm.

Steven Scott (7:41.666)

Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s, that’s fair. And think, I think I’m probably in the same boat actually in that regard. I think I, um, I think I want to be remembered for, I must admit, I don’t give a huge amount of thought if I’m honest, Ali, it’s not my mind to go there. I tend to think, you know, that, and I did for a long time think, you know, well, you know, whatever I go, so what, right? I mean, it’s a podcast. No one, no one lives or dies over a podcast, but at the same time, what I have learned by doing this show,

It’s not about me, it’s about the stories that others share and the value that people have placed in Sean and I to deliver the show every day, but also to give other people a chance to speak and have their views and have their opinions and also have their stories shared. That’s where the value really comes from. So it’s about assessing that value and it’s about looking at it. I hope that David did that with AppleViz. I imagine he did to some degree.

But again, you’d really have to ask him what his motivation was behind the decision to actually close it. But I do feel, based on the speed of the announcement, the way it came out, that he clearly had been given terrible news. And he felt, I just can’t be doing this. And it’s a lot of work. And of course, it was all volunteer driven. No one was making any money out of this, right? So you can kind of understand where someone like David would say, do you know what? idea that the mental gymnastics I’m going to have to do to get a team

Ali Moosa (8:58.128)

Mm-hmm.

Steven Scott (9:8.206)

to take this on, to keep this going, essentially to become a business, because that’s what would have to happen. That’s how others would have to see it, because he had the passion. Others had the passion too, don’t get me wrong. He was not alone in doing this. There were a lot of other contributors. But would they be willing to take it on? And if they weren’t, or they couldn’t, for whatever reason, well, what can happen? And I think that’s why we were all surprised when we had the news that Be My Eyes had essentially taken it over.

Thank God it did, but it did surprise a lot of people, I think.

Ali Moosa (9:41.712)

Yeah, I mean, think it, mean, I was a little bit surprised by it, but I mean, here’s the thing. Like, I mean, the question would also be asked or the question should also be thought of that. Did they like, why did they kind of step in to take it over in a sense? Did they feel, and there are two parts to it. Did they, one is, did they feel that it was, it was going to be an important part of their business model?

Steven Scott (10:3.246)

Mm.

Ali Moosa (10:11.644)

Or was it a case where, I mean, where they saw a lot of where they saw some revenue for it? Or was it a case where they said, okay, that it’s because of the legacy that it’s had on the community that that’s why that we have, we have decided to step in and take it over. Now, if I’m to answer that question, I would say I will, my answer would be it may be a combination, but it’s, but

But it’s more of a reason because that it’s number one is the real reason that they saw it to be a revenue generator for them and be a part of their business model, a good part of their business model.

Steven Scott (10:57.048)

I don’t know if they saw it as a revenue generator. Certainly the conversations I had with Be My Eyes, I spoke with Brian Bashan and Mike Buckley at the time when the decision was made for them to take it over. And it was an interesting conversation because there was a lot of skepticism. And I understand why. Why is a company coming in to do this? But bear in mind, Be My Eyes was set up with the goal of bringing people together. And it’s very hard. That’s what AppleViz is too.

Goals are aligned in that regard, because Be My Eyes is about bringing people together for support. And so is AppleViz. That’s exactly what it’s about, bringing people together to support each other in this particular area. I think it was partly right time, right place as well, because Be My Eyes had enough income coming in through the business partnerships that they’d created to be able to not just take it on and to manage it, but put a little bit money behind it as well.

and actually sustain it and give it a long term future. So I think we can all look at it skeptically and say, well, it’s a revenue generator. And maybe it will be. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Why shouldn’t products that blind people make, make money, right? So the question is, is it done the right way? it done ethically? Is it done with the community involvement? And every single step of the way with AppleViz and the Be My Eyes relationship, I have felt that that is the case. There is community involvement.

Everything is a stepping stone towards a good thing, but with the community at the heart, having it say, which is, of course, the key to the whole thing. And it was, of course, the whole purpose of the thing in the first place.

Ali Moosa (12:37.228)

Because I think we’re seeing like, and as you sort of mentioned off the top here that we are starting to see that it’s, it’s, it’s dominance in terms of it, it’s a very significant and dominant player when it comes to the user friendliness of Apple devices, as far as what bugs are kind of there and what aren’t and what what’s working and what isn’t.

I feel like that’s really where, and it’s the only one of its kind. So I think it’s important if it can be sustained, which through the Be My Eyes relationship, it looks like that it is going to be able to be, then this is a win for everyone.

Steven Scott (13:24.514)

Well, it is. mean, and you know, it’s interesting because everyone always gets to the

Okay, so you know, it’s Apple focused. Okay, so right. Okay, it’s Apple focused yet. It’s not Android focused. It’s not windows focused. Absolutely. There’s room for that. And actually prior to David leaving, it was going that way. You might remember that Thomas D’Eze, yeah, that’s right. think it was Thomas, Thomas Domville, sorry, Thomas Domville had decided to, you know,

put out some ideas around, let’s bring in some Windows forums, let’s bring in some Android forums, open up the conversation to more platforms. And they kind of paused that for a little bit. And then I think they’ve brought it in again. They’ve kind of brought it in a slightly different way this time. It’s all about moderation, of course. That’s the key with Apple Viz, right? You’ve got to have people who are moderating the content, watching what people are saying, having some kind of control over that. That’s really important. But it is also important to try and open up. But bear in mind, there are a lot of us out there using

Apple devices, maybe not Mac so much, but certainly iPhone. And so it’s important that that community is able to get access to information on the products. I do think, though, there is a growing, and certainly if you look outside of the Western countries of the world, you look at the Global South, or you look at certain parts of Europe and Africa, it’s Android that’s ruling the day.

There’s a lot of blind people using Android. it’s almost, I would say if I was to put stats in front of me, in front of you and say, here’s my take on this, I would say it’s probably predominantly Apple in America, Canada, the US, New Zealand, Australia. But I would say when it comes to the global south, or we’re talking Africa, parts of India, Europe even to some degree.

Steven Scott (15:19.694)

I would say it’s Android leading the case. So I think there’s an opportunity for AppleViz to grow way beyond what it is. Obviously, we may need to reconsider the name because it’s AppleViz, right? That may need to change. But ultimately, I don’t know. Maybe it doesn’t. I think AppleViz is the name we’ve come to adopt and know what it is. And it could well be the home. And that’s, think, what it needs to survive long term. It has to maybe get out of beyond the Apple border a little bit. And with Be My Eyes behind it,

And with that content moderation going into it and teams of people involved in that, I think that’s going to really help.

Ali Moosa (15:57.040)

do you feel it is that there aren’t as many Mac users uh compared to uh iPhones? Now for me personally, I enjoy the Mac and I’m not switching to Windows. Although there’s a bit of a story there which I’ll share after your thoughts.

Steven Scott (16:19.634)

Mm, OK. That’s interesting. mean, look, I think we are still in a minority alley. think we are still, you when it comes to Mac, I’m a Mac head. I always have been, but it’s legacy for me. It’s my whole life. My first computer that I ever used was a, well, actually it wasn’t a Mac. was, we were talking about this on the show just the other day. Actually, it was an Acorn Electron, which was a British computer back in the day. And it was terrible. Absolutely terrible. But uh then, you know, Apple Windows came along.

I didn’t really get, and it’s a funny story. I ended up getting a Mac because two reasons. my uh teacher at school, well, the teacher who was actually in charge of the visual impairment unit that I was in at my secondary school, her son was a total Mac head, Total Mac head, obsessed with Mac and encouraged the school through his work because he was so knowledgeable about them.

encouraged the school to go down the route of using Macs instead of PCs. Now, at that time, that was an easy door to push because Apple was big into education back then. And so the school was filled with Macs. And I remember having my hands on the very first PowerBook, one of the very first PowerBooks, which didn’t have a track pad. It had a track ball. That’s how old it was. Gray scale screen. It’s a PowerBook 145B. I’m sure what the B stood for. Black and white, probably, because there was no color back then.

And so that was the first machine I ever got hands on with and I fell in love with it. And I just enjoyed the text to speech voices and making it say silly things. Um, and that was cool. And then later in my life, I got a grant from a children’s organization. My parents, I guess, got the grant from the children’s organization for blind children in the UK, which was called NCBS. And they gave us a grant. was a whole bunch of people in the school got these grants and we were able to buy our first computer. And I chose a Mac.

because I had so much experience with it. So I got my first Mac, and that was why I used it at home. And I loved it. And that was the first experience I had online. And it just went from there. Now, I did switch to PC for a while. And I will say, I had more vision back then. I could, with my nose to the screen, I could get away with it. But I really preferred the Mac and always went back to the Mac. And now I’m in a position where, those of you who are watching this on video.

Steven Scott (18:42.828)

might notice behind me, there’s a screen behind me and there’s a laptop behind me. The laptop is a PC laptop and on the screen to the left is my Mac Studio, which is my daily pride and joy and the PC I use for other stuff, but I do tend to stick to Mac. But yeah, I think we are in a minority because, know, bear in mind how many people are going into the workplace who are using PCs in the workplace. That’s probably where a lot of the knowledge has to go in those early days.

of learning, you have to kind of learn the tools that you’re going to be using in the workplace. And you’re more likely to meet a PC than a Mac. That may be changing, but certainly where we’re at today. And the accessibility on the Mac is, I would say it’s good. And I’m a fanboy, so I’ll say it’s good. I do find it challenging at times. What I love about the PC, though, is you have options. You have JAWS, you have NVDA, you have narrator. So you’ve got three screen readers. So if one fails, you’ve got another to try. And if that one fails, you’ve got another.

And, you know, narrator has improved and improved and improved over the years to the point where maybe wouldn’t switch to entirely, but I certainly would use it as a backup and it’s a good backup to have.

Ali Moosa (19:51.920)

And that’s the thing for me. At one point, wanted to, like this was just actually, I think it was a couple of years ago, I had this sort of thing where I said, I’m going to play with the PC. And it was funny because I let me see how I like it. And then it was like,

Well, and then, and then, and I was also using the Mac, but I always went back to the Mac and I said, you know what? The PC just is not going to is just not fitting my needs. And I’m like, okay, well, and then I’m like, okay, no, this is enough. said, I don’t, I don’t like it. And the Mac it is.

Steven Scott (20:44.610)

Yeah, and again, it’s horses for courses, right? I have days where I love using the Mac. there’s days where I, I like if I’m on the web, usually, I find using the Mac an absolute nightmare at times. I feel some recent updates have kind of killed off some of my favorite features, like being able to just do, know, VO command H to jump straight into the window and not having to interact with the web content. But that seems to have changed in the least recent update. And that was really annoys me. I can’t easily jump into a website, you know, and sometimes

The other day someone had sent me a link to download something on OneDrive. Could I find the download button? I mean, I could find it. Couldn’t do anything with it. I jumped over to the PC, which is why I have it on the desk and it’s always on, because I will jump over to it, opened up the same link, got to the download button in like two keystrokes. And that was it. Download the file. And that’s the thing. the tool that you think, oh, I can use this one tool for everything. But there are challenges that come up.

And yes, there are always workarounds, but sometimes you just want to get the job done, you know? And I do feel a PC, and I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I do feel a PC sometimes is the tool to really get the job done. If I want some focus and get some stuff done, like writing especially, you know, dealing with text, I go on so much better on the PC. I feel with the PC, it’s like I’ve got a firm grip of the steering wheel. Whereas I feel like I’m trying to drive a car in the back seat.

while I’m using a mic.

Which is strange for a fanboy to say, right? Because you’d think, well, if you don’t like it that much, why do you have one? But equally, there are so many cool things I love about the Mac, and there’s so many great apps and tools and features that I use. So I couldn’t be without it, I don’t think.

Ali Moosa (22:18.768)

You

Ali Moosa (22:34.734)

Like, I mean, certainly to like, I mean, there is a lot and I get that. Like I can understand that piece of it where, um, but I find that, that the, just, but see, I don’t know if it’s just because me being in the system, being just in the Mac, in the Apple system where I’ve got the, um, the Mac, the iPhone and the iPad, if that’s what sort of makes it for me, I don’t know what

what it really is, but I seem… yeah.

Steven Scott (23:5.759)

Oh, no, 100%. mean, look, for me, it’s the ecosystem that holds me in. know, universal copy and paste is the most important thing in my life. I couldn’t live without it. AirDrop, you know, being able to have, you know, even going into an email and then I have to take a picture of a receipt or something and send it to someone. You know, I can do that all in the mail app and then you can take photo directly from within the mail app on the Mac. It then activates the camera on my iPhone and then I can take a picture and that’s it. I mean, you these little features.

Ali Moosa (23:14.435)

Oh yeah, yeah.

Steven Scott (23:35.894)

which are so, in some ways, tiny in their own way, they add up to something really important, which is that you can just get stuff done. can do things more easily than the alternative, which would be, OK, so hang on. I’ve got this on my Android phone. I now need to, I guess, attach this to an email so I can then send that to this computer. And then can open that email client and then get to that message and then download that picture. Instead of just, it’s done.

And there may well be ways, and I think I’ve been spending a lot more time on the PC recently because of Copilot, just testing things out. And I’m really keen to investigate more about the link between Android and Windows, because I think things are improving there. Like universal copy and paste is the thing you can now have between your Windows and your Android phone. So that’s pretty cool. So the ecosystem is starting to evolve. of course, the thing is, Microsoft doesn’t have its own phone anymore. And I think if it did, that would be an interesting world to see.

Ali Moosa (24:31.054)

NO!

Ali Moosa (24:35.832)

Yeah, it’s interesting. We’ve got some actually we’ve got some listener comments are you listening in live? Sienna writes Sienna writes in and says even with a PC in my studio quote, I still find myself gravitating towards the Mac for all of my productivity.

Steven Scott (24:56.158)

Yeah. I think it’s what you’re used to, isn’t it? It’s what you’re used to. It’s what you get used to using. there are familiar, especially when you’re blind, right? Using all these keystrokes, using all these things, muscle memory kicks in. so you sometimes think, you kind of, I don’t know if you do this, but I kind of play in my head, is it going to be easier to do on this machine or that machine based on what I know how to do? So I know how to navigate around quickly around a Mac, right? So I can.

It may be more challenging to someone who was watching from the outside. You would say, well, hang on. I could do this in two minutes over here on the PC. And that may well be true. But also, I’m thinking I can quickly jump through the hoops. Like the best thing in the world, I think, on a Mac is item chooser. I love item chooser because that gets me out of every scrape. Someone says to me, click on the download button. OK. VOI, item chooser, download.

Start typing D-O-W-N. Oh, there we are. Here’s all the download options. Hit Enter. I’m on the button. Bang. Doesn’t work all the time. Didn’t work on that OneDrive page. But the point is it does get you closer to where you’re trying to get to instead of trying to navigate around, essentially finding your way from one end of the screen to the other using navigation. So I think that helps.

Ali Moosa (26:14.114)

Yeah, and she also likes the universal copy and paste agrees that it’s a lifesaver. So yeah, I I use that myself.

Steven Scott (26:19.758)

what is.

Yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it. mean, so every time I start my show, I have to send Sean a link to the Zoom room, right? I open up Zoom. I have it set on Zoom that it will invite, it will copy the invite link to the clipboard every time. And as soon as I open that Zoom room on my computer, I have a uh short key set up to just open up a brand new meeting. I can then go to my phone. I can rotate to the edit field. I’ll go into the edit field, I should say.

Rotor to edit, swipe down, usually past scan text, and then paste. Double tap. It’s in the message field on my iPhone. And I can then send the message. I can send a link directly to him. And that’s, a huge time saver. Now, I could do it on the Mac. But Sean wants it sent to his WhatsApp. So it’s like, OK, so now need to get his WhatsApp set up. And WhatsApp’s not the best on there. It’s getting better. uh

Again, I find there’s one example of where I go back to the PC. I think that the PC and WhatsApp is a much better experience. But again, you have to the luxury of choice, right? And a lot of people don’t have that. And they have to make a choice between one or the other. I don’t know that’s why people go down the Windows route more, because I think there’s perhaps more support out there for that community. And it’s interesting, because even with AppleViz, tying it back to that, even with AppleViz, I think there’s a lot of people who are

Ali Moosa (27:43.374)

Yeah.

Steven Scott (27:48.974)

closer to the pro level of Mac and less at the beginning level. And so there’s lesser people around who can help in those early spaces and those early moments when people are just getting used to voiceover. I think there’s probably less manual, well, maybe not manuals, but certainly tutorials and people talking you through things. Whereas I think Freedom Scientific do an amazing job with training videos and the amount of information that they put out there.

It’s not that it can’t be done on the Mac. It’s just you have to really search for it. You really have got to read a lot. And if you’re someone like me who learns by doing and learns by doing and learning basically by doing what I need. So that you could tell me it’s keyboard shortcut today, right? And I would completely forget it. But if I needed that shortcut and I called you and I said, Ali, what was that shortcut again? Then it would stick. That’s how I learned.

And that’s how I’ve always learned. in fairness, kind of, because I remember doing a whole, I did a day of training with JAWS and none of it went in, none of it. Apart from one thing, which was F6. F6 is your friend when you’re on Windows. Moving around Outlook or any of the apps you can move around with F6, that was great. But beyond that, I learned nothing. Because I’m the type of guy that needs to learn. I can’t sit and consume an entire book. just not, do nothing for me. I will not pick up any of it. But if I need to know something, that’s when I’ll learn it.

Ali Moosa (28:49.040)

Mm-hmm.

Ali Moosa (29:14.096)

kind of agree with that because I think it’s, that’s been my thing too because otherwise it’s like you’re kind of memorizing every sort of command and article and how to do something.

Steven Scott (29:20.878)

can’t do it, I can’t.

Steven Scott (29:24.834)

I know people do. And there’s lots of people I know who get in touch with me and say, I read the entire manual last night. And I’m like, good for you. I have no brain for that. I have a very, very small brain. And I guarantee you, whatever you push into my brain, something else will fall out the other side. And so it is not going to stick. uh If I need to learn it, will.

Ali Moosa (29:45.806)

Yeah. And I wanted to also ask you, was there anything new? Did you see anything new at CSUN this year?

Steven Scott (29:51.754)

Oh god, mean, so CSUN’s incredible, isn’t it? Have you been?

Ali Moosa (29:55.076)

No, no, I’ve never been.

Steven Scott (29:56.686)

It is incredible. So we see a lot of tech in the UK at events like Site Village, which is the equivalent, I guess, or you could call it the equivalent. I would say it’s nowhere near the equivalent, only because of size. I mean, the amount of companies and people who are there is much larger. CSUN is indeed the world’s biggest event. But Site Village is good for seeing some of this stuff. But the difference is you’re seeing a lot of products that may never

either make it to the UK or are not actually in the UK yet. Or are companies based in the US who are able to show up and showcase their technologies. I mean, I got hands on with the Activator Pro, which I had heard of the Activator. And I had a lot of people getting excited about this, the Braille display, which has the Perkins style keys, but you can flip it out and it has a QWERTY keyboard in there as well. So it’s like a fold out keyboard, which turns it into QWERTY.

And it’s got this kind of touch activated panel of our Braille display, which is very interesting. And it was great, really nice. And then I saw his big brother, which was the Activator Pro. that was just, I mean, I could have happily put that in a bag and brought it home. But I think I may have been arrested because it was huge for a start and really, really nice because of all the features it had. So that was cool.

We saw a number of new Braille displays that are coming to market later in the year. That was interesting. And I would say these Braille displays are starting to get lot thinner. They’re starting to have much more of an apple-esque feel about them. They’ve got a much more smooth plastic design, aluminum in some cases, or aluminum, as you might say. And just really, really interesting Braille. I also didn’t know, and I’m shocked to say this.

at Sadden to say I did not know that Hymns was no longer called Hymns and they’re now called Selvas. Didn’t know that at all. I learned that at CSUN much to my, because I’m like, is really nice. These Braille displays are really nice. they’re like, yeah, this is a Braille emotion. I’m Hymns makes that. Yeah, we are Hymns. Oh, OK. Right. So learned that. I got hands on with a Brava oven.

Steven Scott (32:16.908)

which is an oven that you can control with a smartphone. They’re working very hard to make this as accessible as possible through the app. And they’re very keen to hear from blind people and get feedback on it. So they were talking to lots of different people there. I saw keyboards from a company called Logic Keyboard. I love keyboards. keyboards with Braille embossed on top, not just like stuck on the top, but actually sculpted into the keycaps.

That was quite nice. So if you’re learning Braille or you’re using Braille or you just want to essentially get the Braille in your head and you feel that’s the way to get it in your mind, you can have a large print keyboard with Braille on it as well. They did a whole range of dyslexia keyboards and small Bluetooth type keyboards as well. Yeah, there were lots of interesting companies and tons of Braille, a lot more than I was expecting. And really interesting device like new Dictaphone type devices, new talking book players.

a company called Solar Grove that was very interesting. They had a talking book player, which is powered by the sun. You can just leave it on your windowsill and it will keep itself charged up. Great idea. Just stuff like that. was loads and loads of these products that were just, again, I don’t think you would ever see these anywhere else, which is why I was so pleased that we were able to attend.

Ali Moosa (33:23.034)

Wow.

Ali Moosa (33:35.344)

Yeah, you mentioned that one. Can I? are your thoughts on the on the the Braille emotion? I’m actually I’m actually I’m actually that would be that’s my next display. That’s what I’d like to sort of if this I’ve got the old brilliant BI 40. Remember the old new generation?

Steven Scott (33:52.108)

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Ali Moosa (33:55.288)

Yeah, what are your thoughts on the emotion?

Steven Scott (33:55.500)

Well, well, look, I have to say, I mean, the Braille, the brilliant BI-40X, the new edition, I would say is very similar. In fact, they’re all very similar. I think ultimately it’s the price tag, isn’t it, that you’re looking at here? I mean, the price tag of the what was hymns is now selfish Braille displays are always a little bit higher. They tend to be on the little bit of the extreme, well, not extreme end, but the higher end, we say. And, you know, the brilliant.

Ali Moosa (34:8.004)

Yes.

Steven Scott (34:21.914)

The is very good. The new range is very good. I’m guessing you’re looking for something different rather than going down the same route again. Maybe thinking of something different, hence the Braille E-motion. Is that fair?

Ali Moosa (34:32.782)

Yeah, that’s it. Yeah, well, I don’t know if it’s different. think it’s more actually, you know what it is for me? It’s more for me the features. Like once this one, like once this new generation actually completely stops working, then I have to sort of look at it.

Steven Scott (34:40.110)

Hmm.

Steven Scott (34:48.275)

What are you looking for from the Braille display, specifically the Braille display? Because obviously you’ve got the connectivity to all the various devices and you can hook it to your computer and phone and whatever else, but what else are you looking for inside?

Ali Moosa (34:59.834)

Okay, so for me personally, uh all I’m looking for, like yes, the connectivity, but I’m also just really looking for just the odd time, just being able to read what’s in front of me using the Braille just to see what something looks like.

Steven Scott (35:20.391)

Mm, OK. So just not a scratch pad like you do with the focus range, but you want something that you’d put like a text document on there or you could have a BRF file.

Ali Moosa (35:26.628)

No, no, no.

Yeah, no, no

Steven Scott (35:32.840)

I mean, in that case, you could look, you could even look at the orbit 40.

know, the Orbit reader, is it the Orbit reader 40, I think they call it, which is the slightly larger, you had the Orbit reader 20 and the Orbit reader 20 plus. And now you’ve got the Orbit reader 40. I mean, that comes in at a considerable, it’s like $2,000 less, isn’t it? Than the Braille emotion. I don’t know what else you would need beyond. If that’s key feature for you, you would be able to use that without needing to pony up the extra for what you get from Selvis. I mean, granted.

There is a difference. There is a difference between the devices, right? Because the thing about Orbit, and I do think it’s a little bit of a Marmite thing here. You either love it or you hate it. The signage quality Braille, I think, is brilliant from Orbit devices. Because if you’re someone like me who’s coming to Braille and has come to Braille later in life, your fingers aren’t as sensitive as they used to be. And also learning Braille can be a bit tricky at older age, right? Because you’re just trying to take it all in.

And so having that firmness to the Braille is really good, really helps you get focused. Yeah. And there is an issue as well, in your role and what I do, when you’re sitting in a studio, you do have to think about noise. And they are noisy, the orbits, because the Braille is so firm, you can really hear those pins popping up, right? So you hear the sound of the pins popping.

Ali Moosa (36:40.022)

I like the firmness.

Steven Scott (37:2.750)

And that can put people off. And I know some broadcasters have moved away from that because they just think, I can’t have that in a studio with me. So they love the Braille, but they just can’t have the noise of the device. And they haven’t found a way of oh dulling that sound yet. Whereas something like the BI20X, the BI40X, or any of the Selvis Braille displays, they’re much quieter, much more quiet in operation. And you have what I would consider to be that more spongy Braille. My Focus 40 is like that. It feels very

Ali Moosa (37:29.540)

Yes, yeah.

Steven Scott (37:32.126)

spongy. Now you can, there are options within JAWS and certainly if you look up to the Mac, you can firm up that braille. You do have some control over how firm the braille is. There’s a firmness control. And I know that the human wear wants of that. So you do have a little bit of control over that as well, but I wouldn’t say it’s as firm and I wouldn’t say it’s as prominent as the orbits. It just depends what you need. It depends on your application. It depends on where you’re going to be using it. If I was to go to a library with an orbit, I think somebody kicked me out.

Ali Moosa (38:2.522)

Yeah, think, see, cause the thing is, right, like see, that’s it, but see, but you know what the real thing is with these things is the cost of them.

Steven Scott (38:10.284)

Oh, absolutely. Cost is astronomical for some of these devices. mean, for all of these Braille devices, because look, they are a niche. And there’s really no way around that. I mean, I don’t know what it’s like where you are, but I know there are often schemes. There are deferred payment options. Yeah, OK, so you’re in Canada, right? So I don’t know if you have schemes that allow you to either get grants.

Ali Moosa (38:17.796)

Yeah.

Ali Moosa (38:23.437)

I’m in Canada, by the

Steven Scott (38:34.120)

or deferred payment options. I know in the UK we had a thing called divide buy. So if I was buying it personally, I did this with my Mantis Q40. I bought the Mantis Q40 and I did it over 12 months. So it didn’t pay any interest on top. just paid essentially the cost of the device split into 12. And it just meant it was manageable for me to be able to buy it. That’s not manageable for everybody, but we do get a grant here in the UK or a benefit in the UK here called uh personal independence payment, which for me that’s what that’s for.

So it’s for these kind of devices. So was able to essentially allow that payment to come out of that budget that I get every month, which is useful. Other countries are different. know Australia, for example, has their own version of that, which will pay the whole cost of a device. And I know there’s similar schemes in the US. I’m not sure about Canada.

Ali Moosa (39:21.882)

Well, mean, in Ontario specifically, there is the, which is the government program, the assistive devices program, ADP. But the problem with ADP is that the devices that they, that the, especially when it comes to the braille devices that they support and cover are old devices that are not being manufactured anymore. For example, yeah, they’re still covering, they’re,

Steven Scott (39:29.599)

Mm. Okay.

Steven Scott (39:46.126)

That was helpful.

Ali Moosa (39:51.140)

They’re not even funding the newer Braille list, but they’re funding the Braille Edge still and the Focus 40.

Steven Scott (39:57.294)

Okay, that doesn’t make sense.

Ali Moosa (39:58.084)

But they’re not fun, they wouldn’t cover an emotion, for example, because it’s not on their supported list. The list has not been updated.

Steven Scott (40:6.562)

Yeah, it sounds like somebody has to have worked with whoever’s in charge over there at that, right? Because that’s ridiculous. mean, the whole point of this is that it supports the products. I mean, you would actually think that the companies, and I would imagine they will have, but you would think the companies would be in there saying, hey guys, we can give you some new products to add to that list. But I also understand how governments work and things run very slowly from time to time. So I can understand the challenges. But yeah, the cost is often

the issue. And if you have got a way of deferring payments or you can make it a different way or you can save up and buy it, that’s great. Or if you can get it through work or get it through education, all the better. But for a lot of people, yeah, look, I mean, the issue I think is when you’re spending that amount of money, you want to know this is going to be the best device, right? Because you’re not going to go and buy it again. You can, you might have this thing for 20 years.

Ali Moosa (40:37.369)

Yes.

Ali Moosa (40:53.648)

Mm-hmm.

Steven Scott (41:4.322)

I mean, maybe not so much these days. I know there was a time when you would buy something like that. You would, you you could buy a braille device and it would, you know, last you 20 years. I’m not sure if we would want that these days. Let’s say 10 years.

Ali Moosa (41:16.972)

Yeah, yeah certainly and I think that’s one of the other things as well like the way you have to sort of look at what’s your sort of thing. Like see I’ve had this one this new generation for about a little over 10 years now like it’s still working I mean it’s still working.

Steven Scott (41:25.774)

Mm.

Steven Scott (41:30.616)

There you go. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And to be fair, it probably will continue to work. You know, one of these things with these devices is they do last a long time with proper care and attention, obviously. But it is interesting to see, have you tried any of the Orbit products?

Steven Scott (41:51.530)

I’d be tempted to try and get hands on with something just to see what you think about it, because it depends on your environment. Like I say, if you’re in a place where you can’t have a lot of noise, you might find the orbit a little bit off putting. But it might be worth testing because again, your cost, I’m not, I look, I’m no salesman for orbit, right? But I just think, I just think you would have an option there at something cheaper that might give you the same results.

Ali Moosa (42:15.440)

Yeah, no, that’s that’s that’s obviously uh yeah, very very good. Yeah, so Steven, you know what? I really hope we can do this again in the future Yeah, so they can find you at doubletap.com I believe

Steven Scott (42:20.332)

And actually that was the thing. when I… Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s been a lot of fun.

Steven Scott (42:29.634)

Double tap on air.com. Yeah, we’re old fashioned over here. So double tap on air.com is where you’ll find us. You can find the show on podcasts. Just search for double tap wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, double tap video. If you want to check us out, the same show is available on YouTube every day. And you can check out there and subscribe for special exclusive content and interviews as well. But all of this can be found at double tap on air.com.

Ali Moosa (42:55.448)

And please do follow the channel. I’m following the channel and you’ll get a lot of good content there. And let’s do it. Let’s do this again real soon in the future.

Steven Scott (43:2.958)

Thanks, Alan. I appreciate it.