The Moosa Slobodian Network

keywords

Rogers NHL deal, sports broadcasting, Bell, TSN, media consumption, Don Cherry, radio, broadcasting controversies, sports media, retirement, sports commentary, Max Scherzer, sports media, diversity in media, broadcasting, play-by-play, sports fans, media landscape, sports journalism, sports analysis

summary

In this conversation, Mark Hebbscher discusses the evolution of sports broadcasting, focusing on the recent Rogers NHL deal and its implications for the industry. He reflects on the changing landscape of media consumption, the challenges faced by traditional radio, and the controversies surrounding prominent broadcasters like Don Cherry. The discussion also touches on the impact of retirement on broadcasters and the future of sports media. In this conversation, Ali Moosa and Mark B. Hebscher delve into the intricacies of sports commentary, the handling of player situations like Max Scherzer’s, the evolving landscape of sports media, and the challenges of diversity within the industry. They explore the dynamics between commentators, the expectations of sports fans, and the impact of social media on sports journalism. The discussion also touches on the importance of merit in hiring practices and the future of sports broadcasting.

takeaways

Rogers’ NHL deal is unprecedented in its financial scale.

The broadcasting landscape is shifting towards fewer players with more control.

Bell’s retreat from sports broadcasting indicates a significant industry change.

Listeners now have more options than ever for consuming sports content.

The reverence for traditional broadcasters is diminishing in the digital age.

Controversies can significantly impact a broadcaster’s career trajectory.

Retirement timing can be influenced by health and industry pressures.

Iconic broadcasters face scrutiny and challenges in maintaining their roles.

The evolution of media consumption has changed audience expectations.

The future of sports broadcasting may rely on adaptability and innovation. The dynamics between sports commentators can significantly affect the viewer’s experience.

Cultivating a good rapport between commentators is essential for effective sports broadcasting.

Max Scherzer’s situation highlights the pressures athletes face in maintaining their reputations.

The long baseball season allows for many ups and downs, impacting team dynamics.

The evolution of sports media is influenced by technology and audience engagement.

Diversity in media hiring practices can lead to complex discussions about merit and qualifications.

The role of social media has changed how fans interact with commentators and sports news.

The future of sports journalism may involve more controlled narratives from teams and less critical reporting.

Personal experiences and storytelling are vital in sports commentary.

The demand for audio formats of books reflects changing consumer preferences.

titles

The Future of Sports Broadcasting: Insights from Mark Hebbscher

Navigating the New Era of Sports Media

Rogers NHL Deal: A Game Changer for Broadcasting

The Decline of Traditional Radio in Sports

Sound Bites

“Rogers has a virtual monopoly.”

“You can’t do that to me.”

“Radio is getting less respect.”

“We can all do it.”

“I hope he’s okay.”

“They just didn’t get along.”

“It’s theater, right?”

“It’s a very, very slippery slope.”

“I hope it’ll be in audio as well.”

Chapters

00:00

Introduction and Background

03:07

The Rogers NHL Deal Explained

06:02

Bell’s Position and Future in Sports Broadcasting

08:52

The Evolution of Sports Media Consumption

12:04

The Changing Landscape of Radio and Broadcasting

14:58

Controversies in Broadcasting: Don Cherry’s Case

17:59

The Impact of Retirement on Broadcasters

20:57

Reflections on Iconic Broadcasters

23:57

Conclusion and Future of Sports Broadcasting

26:55

Dynamics of Sports Commentary

33:04

The Max Scherzer Situation

39:11

The Future of Sports Media

42:40

Navigating Diversity in Media

Transcript:

MARK B HEBSCHER (00:50.985)

you

Ali Moosa (01:43.63)

Good afternoon on Friday, April the 4th, 2025. Thank you, Rod Mahout for the intro. I am joined by longtime sports guy, Mark Hebbscher and formerly the host of a Hepsey on sports with Toronto Mike there. That was like a couple of years ago, Mark. Thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

MARK B HEBSCHER (02:06.32)

you’re very welcome, Ali. Thanks for having me.

Ali Moosa (02:09.942)

Yeah, no problem. I used to listen. I used to, you know, I used to listen once in a while to that show. think you had a lot of I think you had a lot of fun with that show.

MARK B HEBSCHER (02:18.025)

Yeah, yeah. You can have a lot of fun too when you don’t have a boss and you’re really, you know, not making much money. You know, can like, it’s like, it’s not like people are coming down on you. The sponsors are coming down on you going, Hey, hey, watch that content. Not that it was anything, you know, worthy of that type of admonishment, but yeah, you, it’s, as you know, it’s, you have a lot of leeway, a lot of latitude. And I think I took advantage of that. Certainly something that I couldn’t have done on

Ali Moosa (02:25.447)

yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (02:47.721)

traditional media.

Ali Moosa (02:50.476)

Yes, exactly. Yeah, no, I that I agree there. Yeah. So can you tell me about, want to start with your initial reaction to the I’m calling it the extended Rogers NHL deal. How did we, in your opinion, how did we get here?

MARK B HEBSCHER (03:07.561)

Well, we got here because back in late 2013, Rogers surprised everybody in the NHL. They had come to an agreement taking basically the rights away from TSN, the national rights. And it was the length of the deal, 12 years, and the amount was $5.2 billion, which at the time and still is a lot of money.

And when it comes to the broadcasting landscape, the sports broadcasting landscape, it’s a ridiculous amount of money, way more than anybody had ever offered. I don’t recall the negotiating process back then, but I mean, it was a big surprise shock and 12 years. And see what happened was people predicted the demise of TSN. What are they going to do without hockey? And they did manage to get, you know, make a deal so that they could do

Maple Leaf’s regional games on TSN, Ottawa Senators regional games on TSN, Montreal Canadiens regional games on TSN, and Winnipeg Jets regional games on TSN. I think that amounts to like 100 games a year in total for all those teams. And the rest are all sports net. so, sports net for the last 12 years, last 11 years has had hockey on like all the time.

across the country, national rights, all platforms. And now they just re-up that for $11 billion. Again, a staggering amount of money. And so, you know, it begs the question, what’s it going to look like? Rogers has, you know, a virtual monopoly. And Bell has sort of given up. They’ve given up their stake in Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment.

And they’ve also pretty much decreed that, you know, they’re not going to get the NHL national rights back, but they’re still, you know, they still got their regional games. They got their world juniors. You got to, you got the CFL. They just happened to, you know, announce a new commissioner who just happened to be the former president of TSN. So there’s a marriage right there. You got F1, you’ve got the major golf tournaments, tennis. So there’s enough sports kind of to go around.

MARK B HEBSCHER (05:31.273)

That’s your sports center. So, yeah, it’s going to be interesting to see how active TSN is in covering sports that they don’t own or they’re not part owners of. That’s, yeah. No, no, that’s it.

Ali Moosa (05:46.158)

But there was also… go ahead.

But was also a piece floating around that there’s a rumor out there possibly that Bell is looking to sell TSA.

MARK B HEBSCHER (06:02.505)

Well, there’s always rumors and sure, but I mean, I think the fact that Bell sold their portion of MLSC or in the midst of selling it, they’ve agreed to sell 37, they’re 37 and a half percent. That means that Bell isn’t going to be, Bell and people are not going to be as welcome as Rogers people when it comes to access, I think.

You know, I mean, if I’m Rogers, why am I going to let my competitor Bell, why am I going to let those guys in, you know, and in on stories or, you know, allow them access when I, you know, with the team that I own, I own 75 % of that team. And I’m going to say, you know, you know, to all the Rogers guys, come on, you know, do your stories this way. But to the Bell guys, I’m to see if I can limit access that way. More people will subscribe to my telecom. Right.

It’s business.

Ali Moosa (06:58.614)

Yeah. But isn’t it so, see now that see they extended that deal, now that they extended it another 12 years, Rogers extended that NHL deal by another 12 years. Is that, is that saying like, is it saying something in a sense, or is it just that the NHL and Gary Bettman kind of saw more value in it, in this?

MARK B HEBSCHER (07:22.633)

Yeah, for sure they did. Look, I think also if you’ve been partners with someone already for 11 years and this company has an open window to negotiate without any concern from TSN, the way I understand it is this TSN’s window had passed, you know, even if they were going to make a bid and we don’t know if they did or not, but the point is that this was up to Rogers. They would always have right of first refusal. They’ve already

established a relationship with the National Hockey League. Not so much with the viewers out there. There have been a lot of issues. And they’re heavily invested in sports and sports media. Bell, not so much. Bell packed up a lot of their sports radio stations. There’s only a couple left, I think. think there’s Montreal, Ottawa, and Toronto. I don’t know if there’s any more Bell sports radio stations going.

So they cashed in some of them. Giving up the 37.5 % of MLSC could be, you could read that as a step towards TSN downsizing, but they’re not gonna fold. They’ve got too much invested. And so they’ll have to get along without hockey, without national hockey again for 12 years.

But they seem to have done okay the last 12 years, don’t you think?

Ali Moosa (08:52.014)

Yeah, I would think so. Yeah. mean, even like if you look at both like if you look at both sports stations, you look at there’s the Fed and there’s TSN 1050 in Toronto. Neither one of them is that neither one of them is that neither one of them is that good.

MARK B HEBSCHER (09:11.049)

Are you asking me or telling me? Well, that sounded like a well, that’s how. What are we comparing it to, Ali? Like, are we comparing this to what radio was back in the days of Bob McCowan and his prime? And what is it? mean, first of all, the fact that there’s two. OK, well, it’s not a fair comparison, first of all, because there’s much less talent.

Ali Moosa (09:13.196)

no i i i for your perspective there but what do you think you not agree i feel that they’re not good

Ali Moosa (09:31.52)

Yes, that is what we’re doing.

Ali Moosa (09:38.126)

I shouldn’t say that’s what we’re doing. think we’re just kind of saying, what do feel is sort of the way here? What do you think has happened?

MARK B HEBSCHER (09:41.47)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (09:46.897)

Well, I don’t listen nearly as much. If I’m in the car, I do. the daily chatter I can get on Twitter, on X, I mean, I can get all of that and more. And so it’s becoming more like podcasts. Except for the game itself, I could listen and one of the people who lives in the house with me here is constantly listening to the podcasts from the day before. Could be listening to Kipper and Bourne live at

Ali Moosa (09:53.325)

Yes.

MARK B HEBSCHER (10:16.297)

four o’clock in the afternoon or whatever it is instead at three o’clock he’s listening to last night’s or yesterday’s podcast. He’s catching up a little later. So the fact that you can listen whenever you want to versus the people who want everything in real time, you’ve got to know right away. I just think that there’s just so much more of an audience out there and there’s so many more choices that I don’t know what the numbers are like but they can’t be that great. I don’t know how many people are listening to traditional radio. mean audio streams

Ali Moosa (10:42.029)

No.

MARK B HEBSCHER (10:47.621)

However you can get it, sure. mean, I’ve got Spotify. People have got services where they can, know, iHeartRadio, whatever it is, where they can pick up the audio. You can even go to the League website. I’m sure you can get audio from nhl.com or mlb.com. So there’s information out there. It depends how much of it you want. And so, and there’s a lot more of it. used to be you want to listen to the game. There’s only one way. There’s only two ways. You listen to it off of your television monitor when you’re

out and about or whatever or you can listen to it on the radio there was no other way now there are many other ways to find out

Ali Moosa (11:25.344)

Yeah, that’s it too, right? think that’s So, and sorry, you were about to say that it wouldn’t be that it’s not a fair comparison to compare it like the like from the Bob days. Can you can you elaborate on that? And I agree with you, but can you elaborate?

MARK B HEBSCHER (11:33.181)

Yeah, well first of all, there were,

MARK B HEBSCHER (11:38.323)

Sure. Back then, the stations, I think, had shows that were consistent. You knew what you were getting at what particular time. And a lot of that, that’s how you draw listeners. Listen, every day, every day I listened to Howard Stern. Every day when I was on the road for, I don’t know how many years. Every day. If he wasn’t there, there was a void.

And so once you’re used to listening to someone on a daily basis, every day when you get your car and you’re commuting, the ride home, you probably got the same station on and you’re listening to whoever’s doing the afternoons, which was Bob for many years, of course. And so that’s how radio draws listeners. mean, that’s a family that’s, you know, I can’t miss my guy or my gals or whoever is running the show. And of course, the same same with television. But just the fact that that we’re so commuter based.

know, people are in their car. But it’s not like that now. And ever since the pandemic, especially, people are working from home. the idea that you’re going to, I don’t know, flip on the radio in your house if you have it, or you’re going to go online and stream it or however, I don’t know. It’s less popular, I guess. There’s other ways, I guess. Am I wrong here? I don’t see the reverence for the play-by-play people on radio anymore. They’re pretty much interchangeable almost.

Ali Moosa (12:38.339)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (13:04.808)

And the same in TV as well, I guess. So if you’re really thinking of the audience and really trying to make a connection with the audience, to me, you want to have the same people on. You want to have the familiar faces and voices that you have come to know and love. And as time goes on, if someone says, OK, well, that person’s off the air or they’re too old or whatever, you know, as a fan, it’s like, hey, wait a minute. You can’t do that to me. I like that person. We all liked him. Why did you? I need an explanation.

But you don’t get it. You don’t get it from Rogers or Bell. They’re not going to give you an explanation as to why Arash Madani is not working here anymore or why Christine Simpson isn’t doing the games or why Jim Hussin isn’t on anymore. Well, we know about Don Cherry, but why? Well, how come Bob McCown is not on anymore? How come? Why? Why don’t we find out? Why don’t we know?

Ali Moosa (13:54.848)

Yeah, I mean, there has been like when it comes to Don Cherry, when it came to to to Don Cherry, there had been a lot of controversy, though. But I mean, certainly in a sense. And while I agree that you can’t change a like you can’t change a person who has been sort of doing it in that sort of been their sort of style. But should he not have, in your opinion, known better?

than it then to to then to see what he did or do what he did.

MARK B HEBSCHER (14:31.209)

Oh, you know, I can’t speak for Don Cherry. I can’t speak for anyone. Right. My dad’s 92 years old. Sometimes he does things where you go, whoa, man, did you even think about it? You realize sometimes you get to an age and for some people it’s younger than I don’t know what it is where you you just don’t care. Like there’s no consequences. You don’t believe that there’s any consequences. So you can. And I think in Don’s case, what happened was he had built up such a reputation of telling it like it is that

Ali Moosa (14:58.691)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (15:01.679)

Even the thought in his mind of that first of all, wasn’t racist what he said at all. At all. That’s Don if you knew him at all. That’s the way he is with anybody. You people wasn’t a racist term. It wasn’t necessarily new Canadians. It was people that didn’t understand. They just didn’t understand. But of course, the way he phrased it and his demeanor at the time, his anger, right?

anyone who thought that that’s the way he was would have, my God, what a horrible thing to say. And of course you can look at it a million times on tape and his gestures and everything leading up to it. you know, there was a bit of a witch hunt going on there, but at the same time, think Don was, I think it was getting very close to, if not, it was already time to find some exit strategy for Don Cherry. Because as you know,

It never ends well. I hate to say this, but there are very few people in a lot of businesses, but maybe especially in our business, that can exit gracefully, right? You see it with hockey players, athletes, you see it with entertainers sometimes, but not as often because they can go, you know, like until they die. A lot of entertainers, you say, what?

Ali Moosa (16:12.515)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (16:26.877)

Barry Manilow is still out there saying stuff like that, But when it comes to, if you’re in the public eye, you’re a broadcaster, you’re doing sports, in our cases here we’re talking, and people start to notice now, especially with social media, they hey, someone’s on, Bob Cole is missing some plays, what’s going on? That kind of a thing. That was never prevalent before. You might read something in a newspaper column, a radio TV columnist might write something like saying, hey, you know,

Bob Cole seems to be slowing down at the age of 85. But there’s a lot more scrutiny. And I think there’s a lot less reverence for people like Bob Cole, who I think was treated terribly by Rogers once they took over. They really farmed him out. they put him in the back waters. they didn’t give him, I think he deserved a lot more accolades.

Ali Moosa (17:24.744)

Yeah, he did. And certainly, and you can say the same thing, though, about a lot of others too, who have been like, for example, Ben Wagner was the way he got dismissed.

MARK B HEBSCHER (17:35.163)

Yeah, absolutely. Are kidding? They played with him, didn’t they? Here, go sit in the studio for a few years and maybe we’ll let you go on the road. And then finally he said, heck with you guys. Good for him with Baltimore. Good. Happy for him. He worked really hard too. And and rotating, it was always rotating analysts. Like who are you working with this week?

Ali Moosa (17:38.839)

Yeah?

Ali Moosa (17:51.9)

yeah.

Ali Moosa (17:58.87)

Yeah, and I believe in their still doing road games from the studio for the radio side. For the audio side, I should say.

MARK B HEBSCHER (17:59.559)

Not good for the audience.

MARK B HEBSCHER (18:03.909)

yeah, yeah, they’re not going to pay. They’re not going to pay. They’re not going to pay to send radio guys on the road. They don’t pay any. They don’t care about radio play by play. They can get away with it. They can do recreations and it wouldn’t make a difference to them. Right?

Ali Moosa (18:21.07)

No, and that’s it. But then, I mean, but it is something they should care about, right? Because there are always people who are looking for that because radio on TV doing a simulcast just doesn’t work.

MARK B HEBSCHER (18:32.773)

No, I agree with you 100%. But again, this is the lack of respect that radio is getting and has gotten. And as you know, Ali, look at all these courses, look at all these college courses that are closing down their radio programs. Who? Yeah, was was it Fanshawe College? Humber College and Humber and Humber, the two of the biggest, two of the biggest, two of the biggest radio, not just radio sports, this is just all radio.

Ali Moosa (18:46.744)

Yeah, was just another- it was just one the other day!

If fans show to anything, Humber Humber as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Ali Moosa (19:00.801)

Exactly,

MARK B HEBSCHER (19:02.663)

Let’s face it, if you want to get into that type of business, you want to work weekends and overnights for a little pay and all that, or do you want to start your own and see how it goes? All right. Who’s going to train these people? Who? Right. So there you are. So obviously, if there’s not a need for it and people are saying, go into the trades, don’t go into broadcasting, don’t go to radio, God forbid, you know, and also people are used to being on they’re used to being on camera.

with our phones nowadays, people are just so used to having their picture taken in any form. It’s just a natural kind of a thing. most people think, I could do television. I know how to look into a camera and look good and say witty things or whatever. So we’re all hosts now. We’re all anchors and we’re all correspondents now. We can all do it.

Ali Moosa (19:56.696)

Yeah, and also the way they treated Jerry Howarth I think also wasn’t.

MARK B HEBSCHER (20:01.181)

Yeah, no, I agree with you. I agree. That’s a good point. There’s too many people like that. They didn’t treat George Strombolopoulos right. There wasn’t the accountability from the people. you come along and spend $5.2 billion and then you say, all right, here’s our new look. We’re replacing Ron McLean with George Strombolopoulos. We’re going to add some segments, different things. We’re to have people standing up with

hockey equipment and a little set, a little studio there with a net. We’re going to show plays with the people out there with their suit and tie or whatever on. And then after two years, people were like, the ratings were down and people were poo-pooing it. And they said, OK, forget about it. Forget it. George, you’re out. Ron, we’re bringing you back from the Netherlands or wherever. And they just sort of…

Like they kind of quit on themselves and they went to make this change. They didn’t, you know, people didn’t like it and they scrapped it after two years. But also there was lots of people that were caught in the crossfire. There was a lot of carnage from that when they changed back and they got rid of a lot of people, really good people. And I think that was the start of the that was the start of the downfall of the, you know, of the quality of the Rogers Sportsnet broadcast.

Ali Moosa (21:28.994)

Yeah, and I mean the other side of it is as well, but I mean and certainly now it’s hard to even say like see I think the see yeah, he and see Jerry announced. yeah, I’m retiring but It begs the question and I remember you talked about this on on on that on on on that podcast that we on on the podcast there when we that The thing that really kind of was the

MARK B HEBSCHER (21:41.917)

Mm-hmm.

MARK B HEBSCHER (21:53.225)

Mm-hmm.

Ali Moosa (21:58.348)

Like was the timing of his retirement, how it was so close to the opening of the season.

MARK B HEBSCHER (22:05.947)

Yeah, to be fair, Jerry had some health issues. in the latter part of his last season, his vocal cords, I know especially, he didn’t feel strong enough. He couldn’t deliver the way he was capable of. And I’m sure there was a consultation with his wife, with the doctors, with the Blue Jays as well. whether

Ali Moosa (22:12.556)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (22:35.657)

They said, look, Jerry, we can’t afford to have you ill and not strong and whatever. However that ended up, I don’t know. But the fact was, yeah, Jerry was off pretty suddenly. Was off. But again, he had had health issues, health scare. there’s times where, and Jerry’s been doing it, had been doing it since 1981. Right? So.

Man, that’s a long time. He’s done a lot. Thirty seven years, I think it was, if I’m not mistaken. And, know, you got kids, you got grandchildren, right? And you’re going, all right, it’s a good run. I want my health. I want to live into my 90s, whatever. So I admire Jerry if in fact this was, you know, his decision versus working, you know, maybe half the number of games, because that’s been a that’s been a common thing amongst

broadcasters who were in their golden years is they reduced their schedule, right? mean, Vince Scully reduced his schedule. didn’t go on the road after a while when he became 90 years old. And so this is the type of thing. I’m not sure Jerry wanted that. I don’t think Jerry wanted to give people anything but his best. You know, if I know Jerry, you want to be, you don’t want to sound weak. You don’t want that voice to sound weak on the air and have people,

feel pity for you, for example, right? Oh, he sounds awful. What’s the, you know, that kind of a thing. And so, you know, it might have gone that way. And again, I can’t, of course, I can’t speak. don’t know. I hope it wasn’t, I hope it wasn’t Roger saying, all right, Jerry, it’s time to retire. Well, you know, we’ll pay off rest of your contract or whatever. But but but you need to retire because, you know, we can’t.

Ali Moosa (24:07.424)

No, exactly.

MARK B HEBSCHER (24:20.649)

We can’t afford to have you in anything but at your best and reduced schedule. What are we going to do? We’re going to plug someone else in for a few games, whatever. So yeah, it’s too bad because Jerry, a wonderful guy, a wonderful, wonderful man. He and his wife, Mary, I met when he first came to Toronto. I worked with Jerry pretty closely because he was pretty much strictly a baseball and basketball guy, but he didn’t know hockey. And so when he first came and first signed on,

Ali Moosa (24:45.368)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (24:49.897)

He worked at CJCL. He worked in the sports department. He worked with me and I would sit with Jerry and we would go over pronunciations of names, like Russian hockey players names and stuff like that. So when he was reading the sportscast, he knew what he was talking about, right? And it was funny too, because, know, he was like, the Maple Leafs had a gold-tender named Yuri Sirha and it was spelled C-R-H-A, right? Like Canadian Road Hockey Association, but it was, that’s how it was spelled, C-R-H-A.

Ali Moosa (25:04.856)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (25:19.881)

And when Jerry first took a look at it, it was Czech. He didn’t. And I said, it’s Sir Ha. Sir, and he’s writing it down. He’s writing it down phonetically, right? As you would do. So Jerry was always very studious, terrific guy. Wanted to know, did not want to go on the air unprepared. That’s for sure. And you’re going to pronounce names, you’d better pronounce them right or you’re going to get hell for it. So wonderful guy.

Ali Moosa (25:28.919)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (25:49.639)

you know, as long as he left of his own volition, that’s fine. And if it happened to be, unfortunately, because of his health, you know, he had a lot of good years. And as far as I know, you know, and I was in contact with him a while ago, he’s he’s doing just fine, which is the most important thing.

Ali Moosa (26:09.742)

I hope so. I mean, I do worry about his health. I hope he’s okay.

MARK B HEBSCHER (26:14.319)

Well, think he, well again, I hope so too. We all do, right?

Ali Moosa (26:19.458)

Yeah, and I mean another example was Mike Wilder. mean in my opinion like and yes, he’s doing terrific work for the star and Deep Left Field and all the stuff that he’s doing. But honestly, in my opinion, he should still be the voice of the Blue Jays.

MARK B HEBSCHER (26:36.669)

Hmm. You mean on the radio doing all the radio games? Well, the reason he isn’t is because him and Jerry just didn’t get along.

Ali Moosa (26:39.744)

Yes on the radio!

Ali Moosa (26:47.032)

Do think that was the reason?

MARK B HEBSCHER (26:48.163)

I know, I know that it had a lot to do with it. They just didn’t get a lot

And I don’t know, you know, I don’t know the background of, know, who started it or if there was a slight or anything like that. just it was pretty, you know, it was pretty well known that, you know, that they, yeah, didn’t prefer. And again, I can’t speak for either one of them. But what I heard from pretty good sources was that, you know, maybe Jerry, who’s more traditional, didn’t appreciate some of Mike’s

Ali Moosa (26:55.159)

Interesting.

Ali Moosa (27:13.314)

No.

MARK B HEBSCHER (27:23.145)

tone who you know wasn’t as traditional or you know I don’t know you know maybe he thought Mike was too tough or maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree but you know there could there’s a number of reasons why people don’t get along any number I you know I don’t have to tell you or the listeners so that was a pretty much fact that it was kind of cold you know kind of cold in the booth when it was Jerry working with Mike Wilner and

Ali Moosa (27:38.006)

No. You don’t.

Ali Moosa (27:49.962)

And then Wagner and Willner worked for a little bit.

MARK B HEBSCHER (27:52.329)

Yeah, that was actually I didn’t mind that they were okay. They were okay together. you’re but again, you’re listening, you know, it’s you got to start anew. You got to how many games together do you need to before you get some meshing going before you know, there’s some maybe some of the best duos were you know, when they started, they were horrible together. They my god, what are we doing here? And then you get into a rhythm, right? Something clicks. Somebody says, Hey, you guys were funny the other day, or I love the way you talked about so and so and then, you know, you you

Ali Moosa (27:55.244)

I like that!

MARK B HEBSCHER (28:21.661)

You have to cultivate that like anything else. So, you know, all of a sudden the change and you know, and you’re, you may be a more acute listener than others. You, you know, you might pick up on some going, you know, I, I don’t know that those vibes don’t sound good. They don’t sound, maybe they don’t sound like they’re, they like each other. You know, they sound professional, but they don’t kind of, you know, they’re not kind of kibitzing around maybe if that’s what you want from you.

Ali Moosa (28:39.406)

Mm-hmm.

MARK B HEBSCHER (28:51.219)

play-by-play and color announcer, right? Storytelling and kibitzing and that kind of thing, especially in baseball, which is such a deliberate game.

Ali Moosa (28:54.092)

Yeah.

Ali Moosa (29:00.512)

Yeah, and I mean, of course, like, sure. mean, I, you know, certainly when certainly Wilner had received a lot of backlash, like, of course, like, remember the days when he hosted Blue Jays talk and he would take all those calls?

MARK B HEBSCHER (29:12.553)

Well, that’s why there was the backlash. Because there were sort of two Mike Wilders, right? There was the authoritative, knowledgeable, highly presentable radio analyst or color commentator, and he did some play-by-play too. And then there was the other guy who would just lash out. And a lot of times for good reason.

Ali Moosa (29:30.808)

You dead, yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (29:41.329)

Right. For good reason. Trust me when I tell you this, Ali, I hosted a phone in show for several years back before they ever had cell phones where people actually had to go to their home phone or a pay phone and dial it and dial it up or punch it up. Right. And that’s different than, you know, than, I can just it’s got in my hand. I can from anywhere do it. There was a little more there was a little more thought involved in the caller, you know.

Ali Moosa (29:42.156)

Yeah, not exactly,

Ali Moosa (29:49.688)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (30:10.525)

getting, know, phoning and getting through to the producer and then waiting in line for, did you want to talk about? Okay, all right, fine, you know, and then the producer deems that person worthy enough to go on the air, right? Maybe producer goes in your ear and says, all I got a live one here. He thinks the leaf should fire everybody, right? I’m going, I’d be going like, put them on, right? And then boom, that caller would go to the front and then boom, you’d engage and the caller would say something crazy and you’d say, what are you out of your mind?

you know, hang up on the collar because it’s theater, right? And a lot of times with Willner, it’s theater, right? You’re talking to people who are blind to anything, but they just love the Blue Jays. And every time they lose a game, right, they’re blaming the manager. They’re blaming this guy can’t hit with bases loaded, all that stuff, right? That’s that’s all part of it. It happens with every in every city with every sports team. That’s the way sports fans are. That’s the beauty of

Ali Moosa (30:46.583)

Yeah.

Ali Moosa (30:51.17)

Yeah.

Ali Moosa (31:06.99)

Well, that’s, think the thing, right? Because I think, you know, that he, that’s why he got a lot of, like, yeah, no, that’s it. I agree because he, I thought he was just trying to like, you like, I thought he was very good, like with it. got, I thought that he, you know, I felt that he would like, I see, I mean, anybody can say what you want about, can say what they want about, about Wilner. But the reality of it all is what makes him stand apart for me.

is the fact that he is very knowledgeable and that’s why I listen.

MARK B HEBSCHER (31:40.073)

That’s right. No, 100%. He knows his stuff. He definitely does. And look, I’m the same way. You either love him or you hate him, but you listen. You want to know what he’s got to say. You may not agree with it. You might be waiting to just jump on him, which people want to do, and especially in today’s social media society, piling on, jumping in. People love that stuff. You’re sitting at your keyboard and you’re going, you’re a jerk or something like that.

we’ve kind of lost track of how to communicate verbally with each other because we can just do it from a keyboard. And then you look at what, and then you see if, you people will not look at what they just printed, not take into consideration, for example, how it’s being viewed by the person at the other end. In what context did you put this in? You know, you might have to go back over your thread or something like that to remember what, how you were feeling when you typed this. I don’t know, it’s weird.

Ali Moosa (32:24.3)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (32:41.449)

Whereas, know, when you hear someone say it, they’re saying it, you know, with in real time, with sincerity, you know, with, you know, real thought, not projected thought. What should I write here? What am I thinking? How do I want to put this? No, no, no, no. Tell me what you feel.

Ali Moosa (33:04.792)

exactly, yeah. Now I want to get your thoughts on how the Max Scherzer piece was handled. I mean, I have some thoughts on it as well, but feel free to go ahead.

MARK B HEBSCHER (33:16.059)

On the Macs user, I’m sorry, the what?

Ali Moosa (33:18.274)

The Max Scherzer situation, he had that thumb issue, right, and he still went out and played that day.

MARK B HEBSCHER (33:21.009)

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, well, you know, what do expect from a guy who’s going to the Hall of Fame? He’s as macho a guy as there is. And the last thing he wants to do is ruin his reputation, you know, scratching himself late or got himself into a situation. He wanted the ball. He wanted to see. He pitched very well in spring training. So he obviously felt good. And then, you know, and then during the course of his one and only start.

It was pretty obvious that he just didn’t have it and had to pull himself from the game. So that’s not good. then depending on his recovery at the age of 40, is he going to be an effective guy? But it just opens the door for Bowden Francis and for Lucas yesterday. Just, you know, let’s see what you got. This is what happens. mean, look at look at the Yankees, no Garrett Cole. So somebody else got to step up. Next man up.

Ali Moosa (34:20.69)

I think they should have like, see, I mean, certainly, and then they brought in Richard Love Lady and then let him go, and I I think that they, I feel they should have just kept Ryan Yarbrough.

MARK B HEBSCHER (34:27.859)

Mm-hmm.

MARK B HEBSCHER (34:34.313)

Yeah, you’re not the only one who thinks that way. I hindsight’s 20-20. Listen, he’s trying to develop some kind of a team there. How critical can we be? They’re off to a five and two start, you know? That’s what the schedule gave them. You got Baltimore and then you got Washington. There you go. Take it from there. Now you got a nine game road trip. You know, the beauty of baseball is it’s such a long season and so many things can happen.

Ali Moosa (34:38.701)

Yeah.

Ali Moosa (34:46.175)

Exactly.

MARK B HEBSCHER (35:00.681)

And you really got to sort of take it in 10 game increments. That’s the way they do it. That’s the way they do it on the ball club. They’ll go, OK, guys, our last 10, we’re starting this block of 10 games that’s coming up. That’s how we’re looking at it. you have to. You have to look at it in segments. OK, next 10 game block, let’s be over 500. Let’s stay in the mix. Maybe they’re saying, let’s just stay in the mix. Let’s just stay in the mix. Let’s not far away. Let’s play consistent baseball, see how things go.

And then maybe Vladdy gets hot and maybe they reel off like they do a St. Louis Blues and 11 game winning streak. Like what if they started now? What if they just, everybody got going, the pitching was, you know, solid, the bullpen Hoffman at the back end and they just started to roll. Let’s just say, and they blew out 11 in a row. You think they’re going to start buying tickets to games? Sure they are. You think they’re going to, if they hadn’t signed Vladdy by this time,

Now they’re like, you know, the fans are like, okay, we’ve won 11 in a row. Let’s sign this guy and let’s go. So it’s very exciting to see on a daily basis. And this is one of the main reasons I became a sports fan and a sportscaster was every day. It could be a soap opera, but I don’t care. That’s my team. What’s the starting lineup? We can go over and in baseball, you can go over every play. You can look at that play and go, two outs in the third, you mean, with bases loaded and one and two pitch. You’ve got all that. It’s all documented. So it’s terrific.

Ali Moosa (36:11.534)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (36:29.021)

great game. To be analytical, just to be able to conjure up in your mind if you’re not there. What’s it like? What’s going on? Give me a feeling. And then that feeling never leaves you. In my book, I write about how when I was eight years old, I found KMOX radio in St. Louis. I just gotten the transistor radio for my birthday. I’m dialing around one night under the covers with my clunky headphone.

It was an earphone actually. Big white, remember they had a big white clunky earpiece that you’d stick into your ear and a white cord going into the headphone jack and finding and hearing St. Louis Cardinals baseball from far away, KMOX radio and clear and hearing Harry Carey and Jack Buck. I’d never heard these guys before and they’re describing a game from Connie Mack Stadium in Philadelphia.

And I can hear the hot dog vendor in the background. Hot dogs! And I can hear the chatter of the crowd and the… And it’s fascinating to me. And it’s wonderful. And I’m just listening to this. My head, you my eyes are closed. And I’m falling in love with just the idea that you can tell me what’s happening in a faraway place in a baseball game that now I have tremendous interest in. I’m waiting.

for my guy to come up, he’s coming up in the next inning, he’s fourth up. Maybe he gets up this inning. they just loaded the bases, right? And hearing these guys weave stories in between pitches and describe what’s going on, it was wonderful. And I was hooked. And so I think from that point, wanted to be, I know it, I wanted that job. I want to do play by play. I want to be that guy.

Ali Moosa (38:21.774)

And it seems that you still enjoy the sports and sports media side today, even though you, and I know you’ve been doing some work on Substack, but I think I know that I can tell still that you thoroughly enjoy the sports and sports media sort of just keeping up with what’s going on.

MARK B HEBSCHER (38:43.665)

Yeah, I’m a keen observer. And that was the reason I wrote the book was because my publisher said, no, it’s not until November, it’s called Madness, the Rise and Ruin of Sports Media. And funny enough, we came up with that title well before Rogers spent $11 billion for the next 12 years to do hockey. So it’s even crazier now. Who knows what we’re going to get, right? Who knows if we’re going to get, first of all, are we going to get any journalism?

Ali Moosa (38:49.326)

And it’s not out yet,

Ali Moosa (39:07.565)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (39:11.433)

Are they going to ask tough questions? Are we going to find out or are they going to tell us what’s going on? Are they going to come up with statements? Are the players going to be the ones or the team’s going to be the ones to deliver the news to you? Not you can ask the questions. We’ll give you the answers. Right. That’s my concern is that you’re going to insulate the team is going to listen. This team, we don’t want any negative publicity. We don’t want anybody saying bad things about us, even if we’re losing.

Ali Moosa (39:33.006)

Mm-hmm.

MARK B HEBSCHER (39:41.833)

Or our prices are too high or concessions don’t taste good or drafting is terrible or whatever. We don’t want any of that. And if those people are going to write stuff and say stuff like that, well, we’re going to do our best to keep them away from here and we’re going to we’re going to deny them access. And that’s the way I see it coming. You.

Ali Moosa (39:58.486)

Yeah, I mean, know, like we were talking about like good broadcast crews are, know, Joe Bowen and Jim Ralf are there. They’re pretty good.

MARK B HEBSCHER (40:07.977)

Oh yeah, I don’t think they go on the road though with the Leafs, do they? I think they stay right. And they’ve got to be really good to fool people into thinking that they’re at the game when they’re sitting in a studio. You’ve got to be really good. Think about it. In this day and age, to be able to broadcast a game from a studio off of a monitor, a big monitor, and make people think that you’re sitting high above in the St. Louis Arena or wherever.

Ali Moosa (40:10.785)

No they don’t.

MARK B HEBSCHER (40:36.147)

That takes some skill and they’ve been doing it for a few years now too. I think…

Ali Moosa (40:40.184)

I mean, they did, yeah, one time I think Joe did, he did make a comment toward that though, that he’s like, you know, there was something about they had to see it like that, the officials were out and he’s like, one of the things of not being on the road is we can’t see the official quote. He said something to that effect.

MARK B HEBSCHER (40:56.583)

Yeah, well, your range is limited. When you’re at the game, obviously you can peer, you can look down and say, hey, what’s going on over there? You only have what the camera shows you. And even on a wide shot, you know, you can’t look in. I mean, if you’re at the game and we always had binoculars, always had binoculars, you’re like, what’s going on? Who is that over there? And you would, even if you were looking to spy a friend who you’ve gotten tickets for, you get the binoculars out, right? And so…

Ali Moosa (41:01.794)

Yeah.

Ali Moosa (41:12.045)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (41:22.153)

You can’t do that when you’re sitting in a studio to monitor. You’re at the mercy of whatever the camera shows you. It’s very, I can’t say because I’ve never done it before, but it’s got to be, you got to be a real pro. You got to be able to anticipate things and you also got to be able to fake it a bit sometimes. Even if you can’t see what’s going on, right? You can’t because your monitor doesn’t show it to you. You got to kind of maybe kind of make it up, like, know.

Ali Moosa (41:41.667)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (41:51.854)

create some drama or something like that. A kerfuffle going on over there in the corner even if you can’t see it,

Ali Moosa (41:57.698)

Yep. Yeah. I want to just kind of wrap up with like you mentioned, we were talking to Affair that now in terms of like, you know, to do a, be in any kind of media that you have to find your niche and be able to do, you’re now we’re doing it with technology.

MARK B HEBSCHER (42:13.745)

Right. Yeah, because you can make a name for yourself and probably earn a living. I don’t know. If you want to pursue this field outside of the traditional go to school for it, learn from professional instructors, enter the workforce, find a job at Rogers Bell, wherever. Not an easy thing to do, certainly.

Ali Moosa (42:22.531)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (42:40.073)

and then work your way up the ladder, which is going to take you time. If you’re a young person, it’s going to take a while unless you’ve got some great skill or unless you’re very attractive. You’re going to, you know, it doesn’t matter how knowledgeable you are, and how hard you work. doesn’t matter. You know, there’s other issues that could stand in your way. There’s. know there could be diversity issues that might stand in your way.

There could be…

know, favoritism, nepotism, who knows? You can’t speak. And, you know, I think there’s a lot of people that are not feeling really secure in their jobs in the media business. They don’t know what to expect, kind of like the way the world is. But they just don’t know. But they see what’s going on around them. And they see if people like Lisa LaFlamme,

Ali Moosa (43:43.009)

Yeah?

MARK B HEBSCHER (43:43.037)

can be let go if people like, you know, people that we’ve mentioned, right?

know, choose a person Rod Black, Rash Madani, Jeff Merrick, Christine Simpson, you know, people who are, you know, in their prime and, you know, very well respected and who’d been many years in the business, certainly not old, not losing their marbles or anything like, you know, if that can happen to them, you know, how secure are we feeling in this environment, this media environment? And the other thing is,

If you are a journalist especially, are you okay with having to be a shill for the gambling company that sponsors the segment that you’re in?

And that’s a very, very slippery slope.

Ali Moosa (44:38.414)

Well, and I feel that’s sort of the problem, but I also feel everybody should be given a chance, regardless of whether it is, and whereas it doesn’t matter who the person is, whether it’s a person with a disability, person of colour, etc. Everybody should be given the same equal opportunity, but it’s not how it works.

MARK B HEBSCHER (44:53.865)

Hmm.

MARK B HEBSCHER (44:57.585)

No, it’s not. But at the same time, there are lot of occasions where someone more qualified didn’t get the job because of diversity. And that’s a difficult one because there’s a lot of different opinions. There’s a lot of times where you might see someone who is not adept at their job, let’s say. And you might wonder, well, how did that person get that job?

So it’s you sometimes it’s more of a talking point than it should be and in other times It’s like yeah that person shouldn’t have been put in that position But I think that’s the case for a lot of people where there’s a lot of people in management For example where you say how did that person get that because how did they get that job? Who did they know? To get that job because obviously they’re not qualified for it that happens a lot in this world It’s just that when you’re in the media and you’re on the air. It’s a lot more obvious Right the disparity sometimes

So I had had this discussion with friends of mine at TSN. Hal Johnson, as a matter of fact, told me he he thought that they had a policy where they had already hired one or two black people and he felt that was it. They basically said to him, we’re sorry. And so, yeah, that makes it

lot more difficult because he was more than qualified, certainly qualified to get that job. But there was a quota, guess, or a perceived quota. in his case, you know, and there are others too who said, yeah, they only hired so many women, so many blacks, so many Jews, so many disabled. So I don’t know. Very, very difficult. But I would like to think, Ali, that

that in this business especially that everyone who got that job got it on merit and nothing else. But that’s not the case. It’s not the case. mean, Dan Schulman’s son Ben is a fine broadcaster, right? But there’s always going to be the question, did he get the job on merit?

Ali Moosa (47:06.222)

Yeah, I know. No, no, sorry.

Ali Moosa (47:16.717)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (47:23.401)

Did he get it because of his father? Did he get it because he’s willing to take a salary far below what Ben Wagner was making? I don’t know. I don’t know.

Ali Moosa (47:30.926)

Yeah.

No, it’s very, very interesting. Yeah. Well, Mark, I’m looking forward to that book coming out and I hope it’ll be in audio as well.

MARK B HEBSCHER (47:36.009)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (47:41.341)

You know what I’m trying, I’m talking to my editor about this too, because it’s a natural audiobook, of course, with me narrating it. And so, yeah, I’ll give him a push and I may call you back to get your testimonial. I’ll find it. Yeah, because that way it’s like, well, listen, you know, and the other thing too is, you there may be people who don’t want to, maybe aren’t readers, but are listeners.

Ali Moosa (47:49.293)

Yeah.

Ali Moosa (47:58.87)

No, please do! Always! No, no, please do!

Ali Moosa (48:09.068)

Yeah.

MARK B HEBSCHER (48:09.353)

They like to listen. I am that way on lot of occasions too. The other thing is sometimes the print gives me a headache, right? And it makes me sleepy. And I don’t want to know that people are falling asleep reading my book, right? So I’m going to mention it for sure. And I’m going to use your name as an example. All right. Absolutely.

Ali Moosa (48:24.78)

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. No, please do. Yeah.

Ali Moosa (48:32.456)

please. Absolutely. Please do. Please do. And please. yeah, no, please let me know. And and I look forward to having you back in the future as well. Thank you so much. I hope we can do it again. Yeah, let’s do it again. And I’m back on Sunday, April the 6th, when I will be with the topic. Why should why should we why is it important to vote in Canada to cast your vote? Why is it important to vote?

MARK B HEBSCHER (48:41.769)

I hope so too. Thank you, Ali.

Ali Moosa (49:02.56)

Lily Fredericksen will join me for that conversation.